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Irish Wingnut-opedia volume 5: Mark Humphrys

Mark Humphrys is a computer scientist who lectures at DCU. He is also a right-wing fruitloop who has been slowly building a crazed web presence over the last few years.

His webpage is a series of incredibly long pages which list the various things he likes (freedom, the right, imperialism...) and the things he doesn't like (islam, the left, commies) according to his own exceedingly simple-minded taxonomy. Many, many things are "anti-west" and "anti-freedom" and all you have to do is look at North Korea to know it. Other things such as Guantanamo bay are apparently pro-freedom. Funny that.

His pages are conveniently written in the style of a stream of consciousness with little or no attempt to move beyond the simple-minded rant. This gives one the impression of one of those US based talk-show hosts whose ravings are of such intensity that they can barely pause for breath in between their denunciations.

The picture on the left and the quote below are probably sufficently typical examples of his style to allow one to get a good idea of his "child with a crayon" approach to political debate.

Pro-free private life: Atheist. Pro-science. Pro-reason. Pro-free speech. Pro-liberal democracy.
Pro-free economic life: Pro-capitalist. Pro-West.
Pro-interventionist: Anti-isolationist. End tyranny everywhere. End communism. End Islamic law.

It all goes to show that being a complete fruitcake is no barrier to getting an academic job. It is, however, a genuine advantage when competing for the Freedom Fries Institute's blog awards.

Hi anonymous person. If you want a debate, I might in theory be on for it. But you'd actually have to make some points first. "He sucks" and "He's a wingnut" is all very amusing, but doesn't really get us anywhere.

I'm not really sure why I'm talking to you, but ponder this: The people I like (FF/PDs, Blair, US Republicans) are in power in Ireland, the UK and the US, and have been repeatedly re-elected. Your idiotic "anarchy" solution (a child's political philosophy if ever there was one) has not and never will win an election. Normal people, with jobs, children, heavy responsibilities, mortgages and long life experience - the bulk of the electorate - vote for the people I like. They don't vote for people like you, and never will. So which one of us is a "nutter" and an "extremist"?

When your people win elections and mine get 1 percent of the vote, come back to me. Until then, you're the extremist my friend.

I thought the drawing and the quote made a fairly convincing argument for blatant wingnuttery myself, but if you insist, I'll spell it out.

You view the world through a ridiculously simplistic prism which is based upon a straw man, ridiculously homogeneous version of the left (freedom haters) and you then allocate everybody who doesn't serve as a lobotomised cheerleader for US imperialism to this category. While that is a fairly standard "neo-con" argument / propaganda ploy, the manner in which you present it (a sequence of extremely long and very simple HTML pages detailing the freedom haters and freedom lovers) leads me to believe that you are genuinely unhinged.

The points that you make in your response are quite clearly irrelevant. My critique of your political views are not based upon who you vote for, but the opinions that you express on your webpage. I'm sure that you know well that just because somebody votes for the same party as you do doesn't mean that they share your simple-minded freedom-lovers versus freedom haters world view.

Since you are a computer scientist and should know some mathematics, I'll put it in hard-to-misunderstand terms for you.

I am lampooning the set of people who produce unstructured over long web-pages which detail a ridiculously simplistic taxonomy of the various freedom lovers and freedom haters of the world. The only element in this set is Mark Humphrys (that I know of). I am not lampooning the set of (FF/PD, Blair, US republican voters), many of whom are not wingnuts.

Some other points:
* Since I'm not running for elected office people are unlikely to vote for me.
* Anarchists don't run for elections ever.
* Neither Blair nor the US republicans are in Power in Ireland (officially anyway)
* you are definitely the nutter. I never mentioned extremist.

Hmm, maybe I should have ignored you. Anyway, just in case anyone with a brain is listening, here's what I say about the western left on my page:

"The people in this section are best described as opponents of American/western power and opponents of American/western victory against non-western enemies. Their hostility to the democracies ranges from (the norm) endless criticism, sniping and negativity to (somewhat rarer) outright support for the enemies of the democracies (e.g. Cuba, the Palestinians, the Iraqi resistance).

Some of them would deny being opponents of the west. But if you read what they say, there is no sense that they actually want the west to win the current war. Their criticism is not the positive criticism of friends, who want to help you. It is the negative criticism of enemies and neutrals, who don't care, or even want you to fail."

You paraphrase this as "the left hates freedom", which is nonsense. Why not quote my actual words, instead of your paraphrased rubbish?

You also fail to address my point. If I am a "nutter", how come people vote for parties I promote, while they don't vote for your "anarchy" childish nonsense?

Anyway, if anyone with a brain is listening, you might like to start at my blog page.

"Anarchists don't run for elections ever." - Yeah, we all know why.

You most certainly do have a computer-game like goodies versus badies view of the world. When you say:

"The people in this section are best described as opponents of American/western power and opponents of American/western victory against non-western enemies."

You have a reason for supporting America/the West and that reason is good ol' freedom. Therefore, I think that my characterisation of your world view as being freedom lovers versus freedom haters is accurate.

Surely you can see that your division of the world into such simple categories of goodies and baddies is grotesquely inaccurate. You define a thing called the West and equate it with good things, and equate its opponents with bad things. Even by your own crazily right-wing worldview, this simply doesn't stand up - how do you explain Pinochet for example? How about Galtieri? How about UNITA - freedom fighters?

The simplest way that you are wrong is that your apparent belief that "the west" invades other countries in order to establish democracy and freedom is both hopelessly naive and contradicted by all the evidence.

Here's an empirical test for you to apply:

How many of the US military interventions in third world / non-western countries in the 20th century have resulted in an increase in democracy in the country?

Finally, I just read your dismissal of the Lancet survey. You should at least pretend to have a clue what science is, being an academic and all. Ever heard of a sample and confidence interval? It's just basic statistics.

"You have a reason for supporting America/the West and that reason is good ol' freedom. Therefore, I think that my characterisation of your world view as being freedom lovers versus freedom haters is accurate."

As I say, it's your paraphrased rubbish, rather than my words. There are many reasons why people of "the left" oppose the democracies and even support tyrannies. See for example The mind of the left, or Why do people support the Palestinians? or Paradox No.1: The most criticised societies in the world will be the least criminal societies. It's not as simple as hating freedom.

If you don't believe in the existence of unrepentant evil, then you must have lived a very sheltered life, and not read very much about the world and its history.

Yes, the West has certainly committed crimes in the past, as I list in The defence of the west has involved crimes. And yet there has been no greater force for good on earth. It liberated western Europe from the Nazis when democracy was all but extinguished in Europe. It liberated eastern Europe from the Communists, and saved South Korea from their rule. The spread of western ideas and people is why democracy exists in Australia, Japan, India, South Africa and South America. The West has just liberated Afghanistan and Iraq, and Iran is next. The West is not perfect, but its serious crimes are mostly in the past, and this war between the allies and people like Zarqawi is as close to a war between good and evil as we've seen since 1989.

You will never see that, I know. Cynics like you never do. I like the new, neo-con right because it stands for something, for a bright future where we at least try to spread democracy to the Arab Islamic world. The left seems to stand for nothing except cynicism, negative defeatism, and surrender.

You will never understand, but when America wants to hit some dictator, it's the left-wing part of me that says "Go on! Kill the bastard!" I danced when Saddam was captured, and cracked open a beer last week to toast Zarqawi. I want to see all tyrants dead or deposed. That's why I'm a neo-con. They promise that future. The left doesn't.

As for the Lancet survey, why not link to what I say. I don't think you've answered any of my points, e.g. that the 61 alleged dead could include combatants.

As I say at that page: If you really believe that the allies accidentally killed 100,000 civilians, please point me to a list of the worst massacres. There must be multiple Hadithas every single day if that is the case. There must be many, many massacres of over 100 civilians at a time. Please point me to a list of these.

As I say, it's your paraphrased rubbish, rather than my words. There are many reasons why people of "the left" oppose the democracies and even support tyrannies. See for example The mind of the left, or Why do people support the Palestinians? or Paradox No.1: The most criticised societies in the world will be the least criminal societies. It's not as simple as hating freedom.

You see, I have actually read these documents and have come to the conclusion that they're deluded rubbish. For example, the nazis are undoubtedly the most criticised regime in the world, closely followed by the bolsheviks. Were they the least criminal? Ummm, Don't think so. Furthermore, the pop-psychology which equates leftist thought with adolescent "coolness" is hardly based on empirical evidence is it now. I mean, the fact that all of the strongest left wing movements have been based in the labour movement hardly backs up your typically lazy and evidence free assertions does it?

Your construction of a monolithic entity called the west which is "the greatest force for good on earth" is a woeful simplification which ignores the various contradictions, struggles, conflicting ideas and disagreements which play themselves out in any society, particularly those which have a modicum of freedom of expression. It takes a wilful blindness to simply conflate all of the historical acts of western governments and western states into a homogeneous force which operates in a simple direction. You might as well recreate god.

In reality, what you are cheerleading is simply western military interventions and I restate my challenge to you:

How many of the US military interventions in third world / non-western countries in the 20th century have resulted in an increase in democracy in the country?

These military interventions are what you are effectively defending, all of the rest is just irrelevant rhetoric. It is eminently possible to be anti-imperialist, rationalist, atheist, scientific and humanist and to think that western military interventions generally have an appallingly bad effect in terms of human freedom and general suffering.

As for the Lancet survey, why not link to what I say. I don't think you've answered any of my points, e.g. that the 61 alleged dead could include combatants.

My suspicions that you have not read the study are growing. It measured excess deaths and clearly showed, using the standard international scientific measures for doing so, that the overall death rate in the population had increased considerably since Saddam's reign. It also showed that the majority of these deaths were caused by "coalition" forces. The alternative method for calculating these numbers that you offer on your website is mind-expandingly stupid.

"How many of the US military interventions in third world / non-western countries in the 20th century have resulted in an increase in democracy in the country?"

Japan, China, Korea, Philippines, Burma, Thailand, French Indo-China, British Malaya, Netherlands East Indies (all these liberated from Axis Japan). South Korea. South Vietnam (until the military was withdrawn). Nicaragua. El Salvador. Grenada. Haiti. Panama. Argentina. Liberia. Bosnia. Kosovo. Serbia. Kuwait. Afghanistan. Iraq.

France. Channel Islands. Belgium. Holland. Luxembourg. Germany. Austria. Italy. Greece. Denmark. Norway.

Poland. Czech republic. Slovakia. Slovenia. Croatia. Hungary. Romania. Bulgaria. Ukraine. Latvia. Lithuania. Estonia. Georgia. Moldova. Armenia.

"It measured excess deaths and clearly showed, using the standard international scientific measures for doing so, that the overall death rate in the population had increased considerably since Saddam's reign. It also showed that the majority of these deaths were caused by "coalition" forces."

This is not Surrey or Kent we're talking about here. It's a highly politicised war zone, a tribal society based on honour and face, and a dictatorship where everyone had to lie for 30 years. To think you can understand the post-war death rate by conducting interviews is rather naive. You need some corroboration. That's what this statement is about:

"If you really believe that the allies accidentally killed 100,000 civilians, please point me to a list of the worst massacres. There must be multiple Hadithas every single day if that is the case. There must be many, many massacres of over 100 civilians at a time. Please point me to a list of these."

Why is it so hard for you to find such a list?

In the absence of such a list, I will assume that the 61 deaths reported by the Lancet are probably lies, killed by the Saddam/resistance side, natural deaths, or combatants. Prove me wrong by showing me a list of the worst massacres.

I forgot Russia. Chile. Philippines.

The list is of all places where western meddling led to an improvement in democracy. Sometimes the West made things worse before they made it better. Sometimes the improvement was only temporary. Sometimes it was by hot war. Sometimes by cold war.

It's not a perfect record. But the idea that the West cannot bring freedom and democracy to a foreign country is clearly refuted by history. Whether they will succeed in Iraq I do not know, but at least they are trying. People like you certainly want them to fail. And the shame is on you.

I think no one else is listening to us, so I think I'll sign off now. I must say, though, that you are one of the rudest and most arrogant young men I have ever debated with. I hope your manners improve as you get older.

Another indymedia-style-inspired piece of crap from badman - the same whinger who complains about smear journalism. How about a WankOpedia entry on Chekov Feeney et al?

Why is it so hard for you to find such a list?
Because it doesn't measure massacres, it measures excess deaths. That is to say that it measures the number of people who are now dead who would not have been dead were it not for the invasion, the excess death rate does not discriminate between people who die because the water treatment facility or the electricity has been blown up and those that are blown up. Thus your assertion that the Lancet results imply the existence of multiple Haddithas is wrong. You should also note that this excess death rate was in comparison with the death rate under Saddam while the country was suffering sanctions that enormously increased the death rate then.

Furthermore, there is the well known fact that the US military "don't do body counts" combined with the fact that journalists have been largely contained to the Green zone during the war means that we only get to hear about massacres when some idiot grunt records it on his videophone. Finally, I might as well mention Fallujah which was, by any count, a massacre of much greater size than hadditha. It is interesting to observe how, while that town was being pulverised, the US military treated those doctors and coroners who tried to report the death tolls as hostile forces.

How about a WankOpedia entry on Chekov Feeney et al?
Aha. I think we have a sighting of the weird and wonderful sindo stalker.

What is it with you and chekov anyway? Did he shag your mum or something?

I asked how many "US military interventions in third world / non-western countries in the 20th century have resulted in an increase in democracy in the country?" This doesn't cover the various theatres of the second world war since those weren't, in any meaningful sense, interventions in the country in question, rather being part of a global war against a third party. That eliminates the following:

Japan, China, Burma, Thailand, French Indo-China, British Malaya, Netherlands East Indies

We can further eliminate the following countries that you mentioned which, in addition to being theatres in the second world war, clearly aren't third world:

France. Channel Islands. Belgium. Holland. Luxembourg. Germany. Austria. Italy. Greece. Denmark. Norway.

Moving on, we can eliminate the countries where the US never actually had a military intervention of any significance:

Poland. Czech republic. Slovakia. Slovenia. Croatia. Hungary. Romania. Bulgaria. Ukraine. Latvia. Lithuania. Estonia. Georgia. Moldova. Armenia.

This leaves us with the following list of countries where you are claiming that US military intervention resulted in an increase in democracy:

"Chile. Philippines, Korea. South Vietnam (until the military was withdrawn), Nicaragua, El Salvador. Grenada. Haiti. Panama. Argentina. Liberia. Bosnia. Kosovo. Serbia. Kuwait. Afghanistan. Iraq."

Chile: the US supported a military dictatorship which overthrew the democratically elected government.

Philippines: following the 'purchase' of the phillipines from the Spanish in 1898, the US fought a 15 year war against the population who wanted independence, killing several hundred thousand phillipinos. The US went on to support the dictatorship installed by Marcos in 1972 when he instituted marshall law and tore up the constitution.

Vietnam: 2 million people killed and the country remains a totalitarian dictatorship.

Nicaragua: Illegal war, including a conviction for international terrorism against a democratically elected government. Killed lots of people.

El Salvador: 1930-1979 series of right-wing military dictatorships supported by US. 1980-1982 US "counter-insurgency" against the population kills some 75,000 people. UN truth commission attributes 96% of atrocities to military / right-wing death squads.

Grenada: 1983 unilateral invasion left an unknown number of people dead, the CIA subsequently illegally and secretly bought the ensuing election

Liberia: Every single dictator since the foundation of the state owed his assencion to power to US backing. No chance of any meaningful democracy emerging in the forseeable future.

Haiti: US invaded and occupied it in 1915 until 1934, introducing forced labour and the atrocity rich national guard. When Duvalier took up the dictatorship he did so with full US backing and the leading figures in his bloodthirsty tonton macoute continue to live in luxury in the US. The US has since given effective support to the various coups against the democratically elected Lavalas governments.

Panama: US supported the 1968 coup and the subsequent Noriega dictatorship (who was actually employed by the CIA). Then, when Noriega had the cheek to want to take control of the canal back in accordance with the treaty, they invaded with 25,000 troops, killing thousands of people.

Argentina: The less said the better. The US actually supported the nearest thing that we've seen to a late 20th century fascist regime under Galtieri. They have supported numerous anti-democratic military coups.

Bosnia: According to the Dayton accords, bosnia is governed by a NATO appointed High representative and there are no prospects of it gaining meaningful sovereignty

Kosovo: Governed by Nato K-FOR force, not a democracy

Serbia: US bombing made the humanitarian situation worse and failed to get rid of Milosevic or to have any meaningful improvement in democratic practices.

Kuwait: Still a feudal monarchy. No democracy, none envisaged, no US pressure for reforms.

Afghanistan: US heavily financed and armed the Mujahadeen and unleashed the hell of fundamentalism on the country. The post-invasion carve up of power between islamic warlords is nothing even closely resembling a democracy

Iraq: Support for Saddam through all the periods of his worst crimes by US, subsequent invasions had the effect of killing large numbers of people and unleashing the danger of fundamentalism on the country. No democracy to speak of.

Only a complete fruitloop would look at that list of interventions and think it's about democracy. Mark Humphrys is that fruitloop

you are one of the rudest and most arrogant young men I have ever debated with

Do you want badman to feel sorry for you? I'm afraid that the bad one doesn't do sympathy for fruitloops.

-This doesn't cover the various theatres of the second world war since those weren't, in any meaningful sense, interventions in the country in question, rather being part of a global war against a third party-

hmm soldiers dying on beaches, pilots killed in planes shot down, POWs, domestic troops and civilians killed...
heres a hint - if looks like a military intervention, smells like a military intervention and feels like a military intervention it is a military intervention in EVERY meaningful sense.

But hey, its your site so your words can mean what you want them to mean....

Having gotten into this late, I see a computer science falling into that Turing trap most CS folks fall into. And that is in-computability, Turing's favorite joke. And that is, computers are binary, and hence can not solve intermediate questions. Mark appears to be utilizing a fallacy of bifurcation, the same one Turing made his joke about. The fact that the world is neither Yes or No, but clearly somewhere in between is the joke of in-computability and the same one in politics thats represents 'my way, or the highway' mentality. There is no left and there is no right. There is not one type of democracy and there is not one kind of tyranny.

There can never be total freedom, only degrees, the trick is having the wisdom to know what matters. American democracy, what's left of it, is not true freedom, and it's has never been complete freedom. Understanding the true nature of democracy is like understanding a lynch mob.

Unfortunately, I too have joined this debate a bit late, but I have to agree with Mark Humphrys, you are shockingly arrogant. It's one thing to berate someone else's work (eg the style of Humphrys' web pages) if your own was particularly excellent... At least his links are easily discernible.

Here's hoping you'll outgrow/overcome your smart-assed style of discourse that's more suited to a know-it-all Leaving Cert debating team than someone worthy of serious discussion.

"Here's hoping you'll outgrow/overcome your smart-assed style of discourse that's more suited to a know-it-all Leaving Cert debating team than someone worthy of serious discussion."

At least there were actual points, evidence and arguments in between my smart-arsery and snideness, whereas your insults are untroubled by any of the above.

Y'see, some people's arguments are so damn stupid that the worst thing that you can do is to take them seriously. Mr. Humphrys is one of those people. His exceedingly simplistic (crayon coloured) binary world view is equivalent to a flat-earth argument or a proponent of crystal healing. The only way to deal with such arguments is with ridicule since merely by taking them seriously you are tacitly acknowledging that there is something serious about them - there isn't.

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